Courtney Weaver is joined by Patricia Chan from Adventure WV to discuss the importance of feedback and why we’re all so darn scared of it. Come along for the ride as they discuss their personal experiences (both good and bad) with receiving feedback and hear some recommendations on how to deliver and receive it in a more useful way.


Welcome everyone to Wellbeing Wednesdays. My name is Courtney Weaver. I'm the director over at WellWVU here at West Virginia University. And with me today is Trisha Chan and she is a program coordinator for Adventure West Virginia. So welcome Tricia. Uh, so tell us a little about yourself and, uh, what you do with university.

Yeah. Thanks Courtney. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Um, so, uh, as you said, I'm a, I'm a program coordinator with Adventure West Virginia, specifically. I work with the first-year trip side of things. So our trips and experiences for incoming first-year students to help welcome them to college, help them transition.

Um, cause we, I think we all know that's a really hard transition, um, and just kind of generally make friends and have really positive experiences. So that's one of the main things that I do. Um, I also sort of have my hand in a lot of other stuff. Um, I coordinate all of our whitewater stuff and. Um, yeah, kind of Jill of all trades, um, as I would say, many people that work at the university are so, um, as with that position, I also teach, um, some leadership development courses that we do with the program.

So a lot of what we'll talk about today is, is a large part of our curriculum, which is kind of fun to be able to talk to you about it. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here. Uh, we've had a few folks from Adventure on before I know Marianne, who's your director. She came on and talked a lot about first-year trips, um, which is such a cool program because I've never seen such a big program as it is here at West Virginia.

So it is actually the largest in the nation pretty much. Yeah. So we have that claim to fame as a university, which is great. All right, so let's get into it. So let's see literally more petrified wood at the gift shop up the road than in this entire forest. I love this one, one star of a review of Haleakala national park, which I never been to, but came here with them at the sunrise only clouds.

Do yourself a favor, Google, pretty sunrise, and save yourself the disappointment. Very nice. Here's one from Sequoia national park. There are bugs and stuff, and they will bite you on your face. Uh, Yellowstone one star, a bigger version of central park, but with bears, it feels blasphemous a little bit. Um, no analysts down in central park or even.

Close to similar. And then let's see Zion national park scenery is grand and huge and up in the air and distant and impersonal. I got bored, fast Death Valley, national park, one-star ugliest place I've ever seen nothing but nasty rock and salt. Oh, goodness. Uh, so people might be wondering why, why the heck did you all start doing that?

And so all of those that we just shared were one-star Yelp reviews from national parks across the country. Uh, and just insane. I know. Um, but it, it really lets us dive into our topic for today, which is creating a healthy culture. Of feedback. So Tricia, like when you hear that word feedback, like, what do you think, do you think it's positive?

Do you think it's negative? Yeah, that's a good question. And I would also be curious to hear what you think, but, um, I, from what I've experienced, sort of asking this question around, cause I think this is a really interesting question to ask folks. I think of the word feedback has really negative connotation in our society.

At least today. I don't know if it always did, but I think it does. Um, and I think like the things that come to mind are things like strong reviews, like online reviews for products or places like this is such a funny introduction because. First of all, they're hilarious. You know, who hasn't had like.

Inexperience of books biting you or like clouds when you wanted it to be sun, you know, surprise. We can't control the weather. Like it's just crazy. Um, but I also think it's just a, it's a funny introduction because it shows, um, I think where feedback, like most prevalently exists in our culture right now, which is like these really negative.

Or really positive, like very impersonal kind of review situation. Right. Um, which is interesting because yeah. I don't know. Yeah. What do you think about that? Do you, would you agree or disagree? Because I think when, um, when feedback is presented, it's generally people often make that leap to, well, this is criticism.

And so I think that terms are sort of synonymous in people's minds. Um, because even if you're. You're telling someone something, maybe it's because we're just pessimists, but it's like, well, it's automatically negative. I messed up and no wonder going to hear this feedback and, you know, cause it's rare when you hear positive feedback.

Um, and I think that's because we're just a culture that likes maybe likes to criticize. Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's what one of my arguments is. I think we're very naturally attuned to giving. Critical feedback and sort of observing the world for criticisms. And we're not very attuned to the two other options, which I think we'll probably talk about here in a bit.

Um, So, yeah, I don't know. I think like online reviews is, is one place where we see feedback in our culture. What are some other areas that you think, um, well you definitely see them in like grades and report cards? And I mean, we see them as professionals. I mean, every year we go through like a performance evaluation with our supervisors and they sort of talk about.

The things that we've done well, which I always appreciate, but then they're also the things that, you know, maybe we should be working on and some, and that in itself is not negative, but I think it's also the way that it's presented as well, because if someone is very supportive and I was like, these are areas I wanna work on.

I want to help you. Yeah. And then other people are like, you're doing bad in these areas. We only have like one yearly review. There's so much time in between the, I would say like the other times, you know, and this is in various jobs over the years, the only other times that I'm really getting consistent feedback is when sort of something's wrong and needs to be addressed.

Right. When you have so much time between. The one yearly formal review thing. You're kidding. Right. And it's actually surprising to me how many in a professional position. Like that they aren't meeting regularly with their supervisor to have that sort of like culture of like, this is some feedback I'm giving you, this is what I want you to work on.

Like, how can I help you? That kind of thing. And so it was surprising to be like, well, I never talked to my supervisor. I'm like, what? Yeah. I would say another area that. Maybe our listeners have experienced the sort of feedback in our society or our, like the kind of coach athlete situation or the teacher learner, you know, other than just grades and report cards.

Like if, if my coach sees my performance on the field or on the track or whatever, you know, it's usually, you know, what, what can I do better when I do wrong? I'd say that's another area that we sort of experienced it a lot. My missing, those are kind of three major ones. What else am I missing? Let's see. I don't, well, online reviews kind of run the gamut.

Right. Cause you could be reviewing product. Um, but then there's also the, don't read the comments section of like any kind of controversial news subject. Um, I remember I, I used to do like safe zone trainings for med school. Students. And one thing we would always sort of emphasize is like, what ha like the same thing happens when someone has a really good experience or really bad experience, they tell everyone.

And so if you, uh, are aren't a good healthcare provider, if you know, you're discriminatory practices, things like that. People are going to know because your patient is going to tell everyone that they know not to go, go and see you. And like, do you want to be that? Nobody wants to be that. Um, so I think, I mean, you can do, um, let's see, like doctors, you can do like restaurants.

I mean, there's so many different avenues of online reviews that you can, uh, yeah. And I'm guilty of that. Like not maybe I don't, I don't really write reviews myself, but I use them, like if I'm looking to buy something, reviews are really helpful for me. Like, I don't, I don't want to hear what you're selling.

You don't want to hear what the people think basically. Um, which is kind of interesting, but, but I think that that's. I think that that's really, to our detriment, that that is the prevalent existence of feedback in our society are like these really highly emotional, like either super positive or super negative, totally voluntary, which we know voluntary evaluations and surveys get like maybe a 30% response rate.

Right. And so, um, I think that this is. Why we tend to have such negative stigmas because as a society, we tend to engage in feedback in a really disconnected, impersonal, and especially highly emotional format. You know, like someone cared enough about the bugs at 16 to go online and write this like super scathing review of one of the most incredible areas.

In the United States, because they're like one hour of bug experience was horrible. You know, if they've waited a couple of days and sort of chill out on it, my guess is either that review wouldn't exist, or it would sound differently. Right. Right. So, um, so yeah, I think like my argument today, or maybe our argument, cause I think this has been a fun conversation before this podcast and now is that feedback has negative connotations, but can be so, so, so important and helpful for just our daily lives, our daily relationships and our overall health and happiness as humans.

And so. Um, we can do it better people. We can do it better. Um, but we're maybe not doing that now. And so let's not be scared of it because of these like areas that we experienced it, that can be really negative. AKA when there's like high power differences, like between a teacher and student or a supervisor and employee, or coach and athlete, um, and just like really.

Speaking in, in the moment of high emotion, right? Yeah. And I think for, for me, I know that from those experiences, when I've gotten a piece of feedback that was very unhelpful, um, and I've sort of turned it into, well, this is the type of feedback that I don't want to give because it's not helping that someone can actually use, because if you're giving someone just like a criticism or something that is just like, Your opinion and it's not something they can act on.

Then what's the point of that feedback. We were chatting about this before we started recording, but you know, my first supervisor in my first professional position, I, I definitely, uh, try not to emulate her supervisory style. Uh, but she, I had given a presentation to a class that she taught and the next day.

She, um, basically told me that I was too academic in my presentation and that Eddy idiot could be a college professor. I was like, okay, how is this helpful? I'm not sure. Well, this was also the same supervisor who told me I had to be my predecessor in the position. You automatically set me up to fail because like, I can't be that person.

I can only be myself and bring my skillset and you know, my flare for it, through the position. Uh, and so, but from those experiences, I was like, Okay. Uh, I had spoken to my sister beforehand to be like, how, how do I handle it when this happens? And she's like, you know, maybe just ask the question like, well, what can I do better?

So that's what I did when she's like any, any, it could be a college professor and no offense to our college professors out there. I don't, I, that is not my opinion. Um, but it was, I asked. Well, what can I do to do better? Uh, and then she actually did give me some, like, you could do this, this and that. So I was like, Hey, we could have started with that.

And we move forward in a, in a better way. Uh, so what I learned is like, don't give feedback in that way, make sure it's always constructive and do it with. Some empathy and some kindness that can all keep that as well. Basic human skills that we would hopefully all have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Courtney is like, and I've just to be clear.

I think a lot of people in the professional, I would, I would love to hear people in the professional world who have never had experiences like that ran. I think it's unfortunately like, can be really, um, Um, pervasive, you know, I had a supervisor, right. It's sort of in my first job after grad school, who was like, you're, you know, I don't like what you're doing basically.

And you're so lucky to have this position because you just graduated, like do better, which is like, I think that that idea of do better is it's really common language, even if it was not set exactly like that. But, you know, I think it just feels so crappy to be the receiver in this situation, but. It's so hard to move away from those experiences, because feedback, I think is fundamentally important for us as humans.

You know, I think in a perfect world, we would be able to look at ourselves and see a full picture of what we're about. Like this is Trisha and this is like, this is what I'm about. This is what I'm doing really well. These are things that I am not doing very well. And this is an area that I have areas that I need to improve and ways to do that that would be like a perfect world.

But if you think about ourselves, you know, if I look at myself, I can't see the full picture of me. I can only see like my legs or my arms, if I extend it, like, I can't see the voltage here. So we really need someone standing sort of outside of us, looking at us who can help us complete that picture. I think that that is really important to recognize is that.

Perfection would be us having the full picture of ourselves. But as humans that's really impossible. And so we need, and really should be inviting that external information from someone looking outside of us. However, there's also a lot of responsibility on the giver of feedback, right? Because as we've just talked about, I think a lot of these reviews and this feedback speaks a lot more to the reviewer or the giver, um, than it did about like the national park or whatnot.

So. Um, so yeah, I think that there there's a lot of responsibility on both sides. Um, I think, which is like a pretty interesting thing to think about. Right. So what are some more of those things that we people might usually do that can be harmful to that process? Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. I like that you noted a few of them already.

Um, I think I'll probably repeat a couple of those because they're so important. Um, but I think there's, I've really, there's like five things that I've been thinking a lot about over the last few years, uh, that cause us to be bad at this as humans. I think one is that we, we just avoid conflict. Like it, it doesn't feel good.

We're not good at being uncomfortable as humans we want. Uh, we want easy and happy, which, I mean, I want that who doesn't want that. Um, but I think you hear this analogy a lot, like as a, as a muscle, you know, you can't build muscle without sort of having small breakdowns to, to really build from there. And so I think having a growth minded.

Um, mindset is really important. And so not being scared of conflict, knowing that conflict can be really healthy and also being willing to be uncomfortable. Like getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, I think is, is a huge task as a human. Um, instead of just avoiding all this stuff, go for it, all done as a society, we like don't have a very good definition or we have a really rigid definition of success and failure.

And then a lot of times when we look at relationships, especially. Um, we tend to think, um, a good relationship is perfect. Like my relationship is great because I've never argued or never had conflict, which I think is untrue. I think really healthy relationships have conflict and have disagreements, but they can deal with them in a really healthy way.

Right. And I think that that is a better definition of success for us as humans instead of never arguing or never having conflict. Um, you know, so I would argue that a great relationship is one where both partners are willing to grow and learn together. Right. Instead of just being perfect all the time, which just as impossible.

Right. Um, and the last thing I think is that we are really emotional beings and I think that, uh, uh, we tend to not put a lot of time or as much time as we could or should, and to developing our emotional selves. So not letting our emotions really overrule us, but being able to sort of perceive, understand and manage our emotions in a way that we're not speaking to conflict from an emotional state or a highly emotional state.

Right, right. We, um, the place where I used to work, we always had like the three F's as part of conflict resolutions, which is facts, feelings, and fair requests. So state facts, state your feelings, and then also a fair request for whoever it is that you're having the conflict with. And then to move forward, um, we teach vomit.

Which stands for voice a voice, your concerns own. So on, on your responsibility, um, the M is a little weird empathy. So sort of like walking a mile in someone else's shoes, like kind of see it from their perspective and then P make a plan for moving forward. I think there's like there's so many good conflict resolution or conflict management models out there that can help us.

Be better at it, um, that speak a lot to this feedback piece. Um, but yeah, I think learning to deal with it well, instead of just totally avoiding it is super important for us as humans because you can't live a life without conflict. Right. And if you did sort of what a, what an unexciting life you would lead or isolated or whatever.

Right. That's true. Uh, and I, I mean, I, I also want to go back to the point about like, trying not to let our emotions sort of take over because it is kind of that natural response when someone says, Hey, can I. Yeah. Give you a piece of feedback or can I maybe give you a little bit of criticism and your hackles just immediately go up?

Cause you're like, oh yeah, I was perfect.

I'm trying my best. Um, and so I think that that's a really hard. To do, especially when you're still learning, like how to regulate your emotions, just normally not in times of high stress. Um, but it's, it's an important skill to learn that. It's totally hear that. I totally hear that. So, um, just, uh, what do you think we can do to be better?

So you mentioned being that we need to be a little bit more growth minded, and I really love that because you know, growth comes. From places of discomfort, like it's not comfortable when you're like growing taller. Like you have growing pains know, Oh, you're getting four frames and your toes, her eyes.

Right. And so it makes sense if you're growing like. Emotionally or intellectually that's going to be uncomfortable as well. Um, so that's important, but what else do you think we can do better? Yeah, so I actually, when I teach some of my classes, there's two roles in giving feedback, right. There's the giver and there's the receiver.

Um, and I think. We're generally never going giving. So that's like a huge part of it. Right. But I think the other part of it is where we also can be really bad at receiving. So maybe I want to speak to that first. Cause you talked about like, as soon as you said, when someone says, I need to give you some feedback and your hackles rise, I like viscerally felt that like that happens to me. My face gets hot. My breathing starts to speed up. Like it does not feel good to be in a place of conflict like that. So I think maybe speaking to the receiver side first is important. Um, So, okay. This is a little gross, but I absolutely love this analogy with feedback. So, um, according, what do you know about how owls eat?

Oh, what's the, I know there's a pellet involved, the poop it out. Right. But other than that, I can't remember it from, well, it's pretty gross, but I'm going to explain it to you anyway. And I'm not an ornithologist. I'm sure that I'm getting some technical details wrong, but. Um, when receiving feedback, I like to say to my students that you should consider the owl or be the owl.

Cause when ALS eat, let's say it's a mouse, they eat the whole thing, everything from eyeball to tail, like it's gross, but they swallow the whole thing whole, right. And then they sit on it and they digest for however long it takes them. And I actually don't know the timing very well, but it's awhile. Um, to digest the whole thing that's in their stomach.

And then eventually they actually regurgitate the pellet and the pellet is like the bones and the fur and the stuff that they like don't need. Right. And so I think that, um, this is a great analogy for us being receivers of feedback, because there's probably going to be stuff that people say or see or observe and give to us that are the bones.

They're things that after a while I might decide like, you know what. I was having a bad day, or this isn't normal for me, or I really tried my best and I just did not there yet. And so I'm already working on it, but right. There's going to be bones eventually, you know, there's pieces of feedback that someone will give me that maybe just like, ultimately aren't relevant for me in that moment.

Um, maybe things like saying you're so lucky to have this job being right out of grad school. That's maybe like a bone that I would regurgitate later, but as an owl, I still took the time to swallow it whole and digest it and kind of take the things from it that were relevant to me. And, and, and use that to, to ultimately sort of give me energy or grow or whatever the metaphor I needs to be.

Um, so I told my students as a receiver of feedback, like you ultimately may, um, may have the Pelletier for year to date. Sorry, this is super gross, but, um, but you are required to digest it, right? You are required to sit with, it was in the moment. We are like, Oh, it feels terrible. No, I meant to do this. I was doing like my best job at this.

We have this emotional reaction. And so I tell my students that in the moment of receiving feedback, um, and again, in a healthy culture of feedback, the only two appropriate responses are thank you. Or tell me more and maybe I'm coming back later to have a further discussion about some of that. But in the moment, I know that I'm a pretty unreliable source because of my emotions.

Right? So that's. Kind of, I dunno, what do you think of that analogy? Actually, I quite like that analogy because you take the useful bits that are nutrients, you know, that'll help nourish. Your growth and then you spit out what you don't need. So I think it's a perfect analogy. Yeah. And just like, we are not perfect in our assessment of ourselves.

So we're other people are not perfect in their assessment of us. Right. But it is still vulnerable for other people to give us feedback. And so that's also important to recognize too, just sitting there and saying, well, here's my explanation for this. And here's my explanation for this is also not a healthy way to engage in feedback as well.

So, so consider the owl. And then also, like I asked my son students to write down and record feedback that people give them, because again, I'm not a reliable source in the moment, so I need to be able to come back to it when I'm feeling a little bit more calmed down to really be able to reflect and think about that.

So I think that that's like a responsibility of us as receivers of feedback that often doesn't get talked about. But the giving of feedback, as you were talking about from the giver side, I think can have a lot of problems associated with it as well. Um, so remind me, what were in some of the things that you had said about your previous.

Some of your previous bosses, um, that you learned. I forget exactly those points. Well, I learned not to, to what they were doing. Um, uh, well, I mean, I learned that, you know, you have to approach it with in ways that. Are thinking of the other person's best interests or at least what you believe to be the person's best interest.

So if they're going to, it's going to help them professionally or whatnot, um, to sit down and be kind and to just, I mean, literally kindness goes a such a long way. Yeah. No idea. Like it's actually pretty easy to be in a nice person and to be like, I just want to talk to you about something really quick.

Like I'd love if we were able to work on this together and like, what are your thoughts on it? And just doing that as opposed to coming at it from this, I am criticizing you and you should feel bad about yourself. Oh, yeah. I love that. That, that speaks to two really important things that I like to teach in my classes.

Um, one is, I think we hear the word criticism or critical a lot, and I think that that needs to just be taken out of the equation when it comes to giving feedback. I think you use the word constructive, which is perfect because you think about construction you're building, right. You're building up so that the difference is instead of tearing down, you're building up.

And so there's a difference between saying I don't like this, you're doing this wrong. Like this is terrible and saying in the future, I would appreciate if you did this or next time considered this, or it could be more effective to do this. You know, there's a very different. Tone and also ask in those two different ways, but even just phrasing the way that you're talking about.

It's not to say we should never address problems, but there's an, a student being problem focused and solution focused problem focused who says, you're doing this wrong, don't do the wrong thing. Solution focused, says, here are some suggestions in ways that this could be better. Um, and, and that's ultimately like we know from research, that is a better approach, right?

Uh, we, we will. Be more effective in getting what we want or what we think should happen if we are more solution focused. Um, which is pretty interesting. And the other is, um, I love this. I don't know. I don't think it's a quote from anywhere formal, but I heard Kristin bell say in an interview several years ago and I love her because of the good place, which is like super awesome.

Um, but she said. Uh, honesty without tact is cruelty, which I think is just awesome. Because when we're asking people to provide feedback, we're asking you to be honest and be direct, you know, don't mitigate your speech. Don't beat around the Bush so much that what you're trying to say is just lost in translation.

Um, he direct, but be kind about it, which you spoke a lot to you. Um, and I think there are some really, really specific strategies that you can use when providing feedback to someone. To help be honest, but tactful instead of just being like so unclear and so talking in circles so that you don't offend someone that, that you can't really, even, it just don't get what needs to be gotten across.

Right. So, what are some of those, um, methods that you would suggest? Okay, so we talk about positive Delta positive. So the Delta is that constructive piece. So the mathematical symbol for change is, is a Delta is a triangle and I'm not like a huge mathematics person, but I just love that. Um, so I, I always recommend giving feedback in a sandwich format, cause sandwiches are tasty and they're easy to digest.

So you always start with a positive. You kind of sandwich that Delta in the middle and you always end with a positive. Now, Courtney, have you ever gotten the feedback? Cause I have, have you ever gotten feedback? That's like, I didn't like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this, you did this poorly and this is not good, but also, you're doing a good job.

Like I think that happens all the time. Like we, again, and you said at the beginning are so attuned to seeing. Sort of problems and things that need to be done better. And we're not very good at specifically observing for the good things. Right. And so think our feedback needs to be balanced. I can't give you or vice versa, incredibly specific and lengthy negative or, or.

Critical or constructive feedback and then end it with, but you're doing a good job. You're not going to hear that at all. You know, it feels crappy for that to be so balanced. So, um, and, and also a part of solution focus is, is being a good observer of what's going well. Right? What is going well? What is functional?

And how can you build off of that? That's kind of the heart of a solution focused way to approach things. So using the sandwich method, positive Delta, positive, being specific in your feedback and being balanced in your feedback. If I'm going to present you with like one really specific way that I wouldn't want to see you improve in our relationship, I also am going to present you with one really specific way that or two really specific ways that I'm really appreciating sort of what you're bringing or what you're trying to do, or what's happening as well.

I think that balance piece, like we just don't see very often or I'm going to come away from that ultimately feeling not good. If you spend 15 minutes talking about the bad things or the things that need to improve and sort of one quick. Not well thought out sentence on like, what is going well, like I think we all remember, like, I don't know if you remember some of the compliments that people have given you over the years.

Like those things stick with us. Right. Um, because we just don't get them that often, often like true compliments on your character or the good work that you've done. Um, and so I think it's important that to know that we also can have an effect on people. With some of just being really observant and, and, um, intentional in positively reinforcing some of the stuff that folks are doing around us.

Yeah. Yeah. And then these are two things. I think you probably speak to this better, but you know, in. A lot of the counseling and therapy world is speaking to the behavior, not the person and in using I-statements also are super important with the tech piece of things. So, yeah, I mean, going into maybe a feedback session and saying, okay, like you were thinking that you should be doing this and it's like, yeah, no, you, I think that you are thinking about that.

Yeah. There's never been saying like, you're selfish, right. Or saying like, when you did this, it was selfish behavior. And it made me feel this way. Right. So I think that's super important because we can change behavior. But if you're telling me this is an inherent part of myself, then like, why would I even bother caring to change it as well?

Right. No, that's that is the truth. Um, all right. Well, I mean, this was a great conversation, Tricia. I really appreciate you coming in. Can I say two final closing things? Was that when I feel like a lot of people, so I think like the little final do things I would want to say is that like feedback is for everyone, right?

So if I'm giving feedback to someone or I'm feeling this way, I need to do some pretty serious self-reflection as well as to how that might apply to me. Um, because most likely the feedback that is circulating around us can apply to all of us in some way, shape or form. And then also I think just as humans, we're not good at giving time and space.

To have feedback. So I loved what you said at the very start Courtney, you said that like one habit you've tried to build is, is saying like, what can I do better or, you know, asking for it. I think that's a really important thing that we can do to just start to leave time in space for this, to be a normal part of our communication between partners, friends, family, whatever, um, it’s just asking, is there anything I can do better?

What did you think about that? I think that's really important. So I'm sorry to interject. No, no, that's totally fine. I think those were really good. Two good points to end it on that feedback is in fact for everyone. And I mean, usually we try to do like a wellbeing, snapshot or rethink about like what the subject that we're talking about in the current day and age.

And I mean, I think we touched on in the beginning where you can basically go online and review, give feedback for anything from a restaurant to, you know, sugar-free Haribo gummy bears, which if you've never read those reviews on Amazon and want to laugh. By all means, check those out. Um, so I guess we'll, we'll leave it at that.

So thank you to Trisha again, and thank you to all of our listeners out there. We really appreciate it. This will be our last episode before the break for Thanksgiving. Um, and hopefully we'll have some new episodes in December. Uh, but in case we don't. Have a safe holiday break and we'll catch you all next time on Wellbeing Wednesdays.

Thanks for listening.